For this week’s episode, Jacquelyn interviewed Steve Kaczynski, co-author of the book “The Everything Token,” and co-host of a web3 morning show Coffee with Captain. He also co-authored the first Harvard Business Review article about NFTs and outside of that, he consults with agencies and brands about building their web3 strategies including his role with Starbucks where he is a community lead for its NFT-focused loyalty program, Starbucks Odyssey. Before getting into the web3 world, Steve worked in communications and marketing roles at places for over 15 years.
For this week’s episode, Jacquelyn interviewed Steve Kaczynski, co-author of the book “The Everything Token,” and co-host of a web3 morning show Coffee with Captain.
He also co-authored the first Harvard Business Review article about NFTs and outside of that, he consults with agencies and brands about building their web3 strategies including his role with Starbucks where he is a community lead for its NFT-focused loyalty program, Starbucks Odyssey.
Before getting into the web3 world, Steve worked in communications and marketing roles at places for over 15 years.
Jacquelyn and Steve discuss what got him interested in NFTs, how important it is to build understanding for the sector and why communities matter more than floor prices.
They also dive into:
(0:00) Introduction
(4:23) NFT value creation
(11:41) NFT and community building
(18:14) Bored Ape community building
(20:42) Web3 gaming and community
(23:13) Starbucks Odyssey program and its engagement with web3
(31:30) What's next for NFTs
Jacquelyn Melinek
Hey everyone, its Jacqueline melanic. Welcome to chain reaction, a show that unpacks and dives deep into the latest trends, drama and news breaking things down block by block for the crypto curious. This year we're doing monthly series diving into different topics and themes in crypto. And to start things off this month we're focusing on NF Ts. I'm interviewing some of the biggest NFT players and founders about how they've weathered the booms and busts in the sector, what they're focused on and what can be next for the industry. Hope you enjoy. Today, today's guest is Steve Kaczynski, co author of the book The everything token and co host of a web three morning show called Coffee with Captain. He also co authored the first Harvard Business Review article about NF Ts and outside of that he consults with agencies and brands about building their web three strategies, including his role with Starbucks, where he's a community lead for its NFT focus loyalty program, Starbucks Odyssey before getting into the web three world Steve worked in communications and marketing roles at places for over 15 years. And we're excited to have him on So Steve, welcome to the show.
Steve Kaczynski
Thanks for having me. Really excited to be on here. And as we were saying before, it's good to talk face to face and actually kind of see you and have this conversation. Yeah,
Jacquelyn Melinek
I'm glad to know you're a real person and not just aboard Dave NFT. Love to start, can you tell us about one of the most interesting people you've met in the past 12 months in crypto and what did you learn from them?
Steve Kaczynski
Yeah, I mean, it's funny, like within the cryptocurrency industry, I think there's somebody that is one of these sort of original board ape people from the community named Josh Ong. And he was a sort of crypto news reporter prior to being in web three. Now he does a consulting agency called boardroom ventures. And Josh is one of the most interesting people in the sense that he will do things with zero personal agenda to himself. And I would credit him as one of the people who truly on boarded me into this world. I've always been a tech nerd who's super interested in tech since you know, I'm 40 years old. Now. I was building websites when I was in middle school in sixth and seventh grade and having teachers tell me, you know, this is a cool hobby. But this isn't the future. This is the internet. It's just a little hobby thing. So coming in here and being able to ask any silly question early on in, you know, late 2020, early 2021. And having Josh be one of those people who gave me those answers. I really learned a couple of things from him. One, obviously, the ins and outs of web three and NF T's and how they work. But I think even more than that, I think I learned the ethos of the crypto world, which is the way that you can sort of help each other no matter who you are the way that we could create a bond and a relationship without ever meeting in person and a great friendship. And so I think he taught me a lot of those things about how I should lead by example, the way he does, and I tried to do that as well. And as well as just the ins and outs of the blockchain.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Yeah, I feel that I have like internet friends. And it's so weird when I meet him in person or even over zoom like this. It's a different feeling. And like people in other industries don't really get that. But what made you so interested in NFT? Specifically, was it the community aspect? Or did you just kind of see one of the collections you're like, Hey, I like that artwork.
Steve Kaczynski
So I actually my poor team that was working for me at at the time, I was kind of starting the recruitment marketing department at progressive. And my poor team had to watch me when I get into crypto, actually whiteboard why I thought smart contracts on the Ethereum blockchain were super interesting. This is 2017 2018. I always want the concept really interesting. But nobody really put it into practice. And so I actually discovered the NBA top Shots first in, you know, again, like early 2021, I started poking around. And when I looked up what it was because I was like, this is interesting. I can sort of buy and sell it. There's a market there serial numbers. It's like sports cards. And I love collectibles. If people are watching on Zoom, you can see my background. I love collectibles. But I looked into it. And it's like, Wait, this is built on a smart contract, because I didn't know what an NF T was. And I read it. And it's talking to you about these businesses built on blockchains. And I thought, wow, like, this is a really interesting concept that I've been, you know, super engaged with for over three years, and seeing it come to fruition was a really cool thing to sort of notice. And so at that point, I learned everything I could, and dove all in I'm a very passionate person when it comes to my hobbies. Like I'm one of those people who goes zero to 100 very quickly. So I just started soaking in everything I could and, you know, nine months later, co authored the first Harvard Business Review article about NFT. So learned enough to kind of understand how and why they create value.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Yeah. And how has that passion kind of evolved over time? Is that still a hobby to you? It doesn't seem like it seems like it's a full time job. Now.
Steve Kaczynski
It's multiple full time jobs. Now at this point, actually, it's, um, yeah, it's full time helping Starbucks, like you said with their community lead. It's hosting that show, which is just a passion because for two hours, and this is what's cool. Is that just a backup per second, we talk about the concept of like, what's a Metaverse and everybody has these big overarching views of it. Like to me what I do every morning at 8am until 10 is a Metaverse we all sit there behind PFPs with people I never would have otherwise met and we try Are you ideas, we trade information and it became more of a passion and actually was officially full time as of the beginning of 2022. But it's that it's Starbucks. It's the book. And it's always looking for the next sort of consulting thing to do. Because it really is that idea of chasing down my passion. And it's like, I can go through a day where I could work 13 hours, and I look up and I look around, and I say, I still want to do things, because I'm still passionate. And I think that's how, you know, kind of, you're where you're supposed to be in life.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Yeah, I love that. Honestly, that's me at crypto conferences. It's like, you get up at seven, and you're still out at work events, or whatever you want to call it to, like 2am. And you're just like, enjoying it, because that's what you love to do. That's how I feel at least you brought up the Harvard Business Review article. And for those who don't know, can you kind of just explain us like what it was that you wrote about NF T's? What inclined you to write it? And then what was the feedback like?
Steve Kaczynski
So the funny part about the front end of that is what you just said about crypto conferences actually applies to that. So my co author, actually, Scott commoners, he is a Harvard Business School professor, as well as an a16z research partner, he sent me a Twitter DM, because you talked about nature, Scott, and I just wrote this book we've never met in person, we've only met over zoom, and we only had conversation. So that's web three. In a nutshell, we met in a Twitter space. And likewise, like he sent me a DM because he said, Look, I just got the okay to write the first Harvard Business Review article about NF T's. But it was the night before NFT, NYC in 2021. He knew I was going there, I was meeting all these friends. So the story you told earlier about crypto conferences, I was up going to these things all day. And then at night, I was getting back to my room sometimes at three in the morning, and editing this Harvard Business Review article that had to be done that week. So it's really a microcosm. But you know, the reason we wanted to write it is because I think the industry gets somewhat over financialized at times, and don't get me wrong there. Certainly financial aspects that exist in NF T's. But one of the things we wrote is like we would have people saying like, so why is a picture of a monkey worth so much money? Or why is that people everydays were so much money. And we realized there was an opportunity to tell the story of exactly the title of the article, how NF T's create value, we knew the reception web three would be great because it's sort of a legitimizing of this technology, right to some degree. And when I was at progressive, and we would do a training, we would print out Harvard Business Review articles to talk about and discuss and trade ideas. And so the fact that it was an HBr, we knew web three would like it. What was crazy is we got such a great reception outside of web three. And we had people saying, you know, will I want to learn more? And can we dive more in on this topic? And while we were doing some consulting concurrently, Scott and I would find ourselves getting the same exact questions like people saying, but isn't crypto a scam? Which, you know, is or you know, how are things with technology? And they can't be and and we
Jacquelyn Melinek
actually address that's true of any industry. But yeah, sorry, go. Oh,
Steve Kaczynski
no, no, it's so true is and it's funny you say that because one of the reasons we dovetailed into the book was because we were getting so many questions, we realized the only way to scale this because To my knowledge, there's no actual way to clone ourselves yet. So we thought, hey, let's let's write a book or let's let's go and kind of pitch a book to penguin publishing and enter your point about the scam thing. I mean, we took those and we said you know page nine, I think it is has a subhead that says something to the effect of but wait isn't cryptocurrency a scam? And you know, aren't NF T's tied to cryptocurrency and we want to address those because we don't want to dismiss the fact to go back to your original question of the article that on its face, the idea that you go labs, a company that got you know, valued at $4 billion, selling pictures of cartoon monkeys. Sounds ridiculous, we get that. And so we want to acknowledge that readers aren't crazy for thinking that but there is more to it. And we want people to know the why so we can help really push the technology forward to better the world in general.
Jacquelyn Melinek
I'm glad you brought up that point of like ridiculousness, because that is something that people always say to me, and like earlier this week, or last week, I saw that one of those rock and FTS, was sold for like $700,000. And like, Listen, if I had that money, I don't think I would buy it but power to whoever did. And the justification for it by like the milk road newsletter writers was that this is like a very small collection. People love this MFT artists, etc, etc. Like maybe someone finds meaning in it. And it might be ridiculous to some people, but then it's like, I know Do you know on the back of cars where they have like the baby on board stickers, those aren't worth like millions and millions of dollars, the Creator who made that it's just a sticker. But the point here is is that like even if we don't see the value in it, someone else does. And I'm glad you brought up your book to the everything Tolkien because you talk about NF T's in a way that makes them tangible. And you dive into how they'll transform the world you and Scott and without giving like too much away because I know you want people to get the book Can you give us like one of the ways you see them changing society?
Steve Kaczynski
My publisher would love you because it's specifically because I have made the point of like Scott and I are probably the worst salesman in the sense that we just want to get the ideas out there in people's hands. And so we sometimes go overboard and basically you know, detailing the book but You know, I'll give you a couple of interesting ones that are on different ends of the spectrum. I think on one end, you have something like aI right now with people being very worried about deep fakes and things like that. But in a world of tokenized authenticity, where I have a personal token tied to something I release, you can authentically see if it's a deep fake, or if it's something I officially release. So I think stuff like that on a high level is very interesting, especially as we go into the future. But then it's like things like ticketing, like every day, when you go to a game, you know, you go to a baseball game or football game or a soccer game, you bring your ticket, you scan a QR code, probably on a piece of paper and you throw it away. But because NF T's provide infallible proof of digital ownership, that ticket can become a brand building asset that is a living, breathing, and not just a game. I mean, if Lin Manuel Miranda wanted to say I want to give everybody who went to the heights before Hamilton was big a reward for early supporting me, he could do that through the blockchain, or a local restaurant that is next to a stadium could say, anyone who has the NF T's tickets that proves they're a season ticket holder, you know, not just you're wearing a shirt from outside and you get a deal or not just you tell us your season ticket holder and show us a screenshot, you actually can authenticate someone's a season ticket holder, they could say, We're the official bar and restaurant of season ticket holders, and you can get, you know, certain free food or certain discounts on drinks. And or the team can say, if everybody wants to claim a free sweatshirt who went to every home game this year, you know, we can build that on top of it. Because NF T's aren't just digital proof of ownership. They actually are a software you can embed in things versus like I can prove I owe my house through the deed and you know, through the registry, right. But like, you can't really program utility on top of that very easily. Whereas the blockchain makes that extremely elegant. So you know, the tickets is a microcosm for several industries. But I think the deep fake thing is a good example of technology that even as we were writing the book, initially, we never thought about. And as it becomes more of a problem, we realized, oh, like web three and NF T's can solve for this in a way that we couldn't before. Right?
Jacquelyn Melinek
And I'm glad you brought that up, too, because I think a lot of the conversation around NF T's is about changing the world with rewards and loyalties. And I see the value in that as well. Like my sister bought the Dominique Ansel NFT. She's never seen an NF T in her life, but she apparently loves CRO nuts. And this was years ago, and she had no idea how to do it. So I showed her how to do it. We spent like a bajillion dollars on eath gas fees. And she was like, why is it costing so much money? And I was like, Yeah, I know, this sucks. And like things have moved on since then. But aside from rewards, which we kind of just talked about, what are their core use cases for NF T's do you think will be the most prominent this year? And then going forward?
Steve Kaczynski
There's a couple of different ways this year as we look into it, I think we're going to see a lot of community based brand building to your point because I think while Starbucks Odyssey is an example is that you know, I work with as a community lead Well, yes, the actual rewards they're giving out are sort of NF T's although they don't call them NF, T's, their stamps, my you know, 68 year old mother has no problem navigating them, right. Like that's, that's something she can use. But what's really interesting, and I believe it was the it was either the CMO or CFO of Starbucks can't remember who when they dropped the program said, you know, we're creating a third place everywhere, we're able to help people find their tribe who are Starbucks fans, and, and I've seen that, right, I've seen that with people who live in California, in the Starbucks Odyssey community are really good friends with people in Chicago, and they have met, they've met up in real life at times. And this never would have happened if not for web three. And I think the brand anchors to sort of gated areas is something we'll see this year, I think beyond what I'm excited to see is as the picks and shovels get built out, because right now, I mean, I mentioned like, I love the internet in middle school. But back then it was like, the technology wasn't great. If my sister got a phone call, it kicked me offline, because it was your phone line. If I had one line of code off, it made the entire website code and now you and I could spin up a website tomorrow with a third party, you know, whether it's Squarespace or any other one, right? And what I look forward to is those out of the box solutions being built, I think that's something we'll see people working on so that a local business, not just a Starbucks, or Nike can say, hey, we want to spin up an NFT loyalty program. Here's the out of the box solution. I think it starts though, with what I call third party utility when I mentioned a bar using a ticket as a asset that they get Anker. I think that's where it'll be interesting. You know, there's an example we use in the book, which is one that I would say and again, it's a big company, but a local company could do this potentially, where you know, Hot Pockets targets gamers, I used to work at Nestle Hot Pockets, not surprisingly, looks for gamers. And so, you know, if they're trying to reach that target audience right now, they do a large sponsorship with NRG, a major gaming company, but there's a world where hot pockets can say if you bought the latest fortnight skin, connect that wallet to our site, and we'll give you a 20% discount. Now the purchaser is happy the eater is happy, they get a discount, they're in the ecosystem and hot pockets can tell beyond the shadow of a doubt. This person isn't just a gamer. They're an active gamer who's participating and willing to spend disposable income on sort of these third party things. So I think that third party utility is where we'll start to see the initial Pixon troubles where local businesses and others can take advantage of that.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Okay, I like that, Steve, we're gonna take a quick break before we get into the rapid fire segment.
And we are back now it's time for our rapid fire segment where I will ask Steve some quick questions. And hopefully he gives us some quick responses to start, Steve, not financial advice. We got to throw that out there. But what is one NFC project you're watching right now and considering buying?
Steve Kaczynski
I'm considering buying more because I have a lot of stuff more doodles because I just think their brand partnerships in the way they're leaning into them are really interesting. And the fact that they're Kroc sold 60% to non doodles holders, the fact that camp, their integration at the largest opening in camp history, which has done integrations with Disney and Nike. The fact they're working with G shock, which worked with Pharrell and Kim Kardashian just bought a major G shock watch. Those are interesting. So doodles is super interested in me right now.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Yeah, I think doodles are adorable. They have very good brand recognition, I think in the crypto space 100%. What is your favorite NFT in your collection? Oh,
Steve Kaczynski
great question. I mean, I have to say my board API club right now only because yeah, I mean, it's it changed my life. I could have gone a little bit like cornea, because there's some other ones for art blocks that mean a lot to me. But like, I think for me, it changed my life. And it represents the beginning of my journey that got me to where I am and I wouldn't be where I am now writing books and on this podcast if it weren't for me buying that weird JPEG of a monkey that got people questioning me way back in May 2021.
Jacquelyn Melinek
So you bought it when it first came out.
Steve Kaczynski
I bought it on secondary actually bought a Wii friend before I bought a board ape and I was saving for it almost wasn't able to get a board ape and then their email tweet, you could find where I was saying, I'm never gonna own one. And then the floor came in a little bit. And I bought it for like point three eath, which was the equivalent of $1,000, which will get a lot of people in your friends group and your parents saying you spent $1,000 On what but now they get it now it's paid off. Yeah.
Jacquelyn Melinek
Okay. On that note, what is the most expensive NFT you've bought? Oh,
Steve Kaczynski
wow. It was a trade. And I traded for a moonbird back when they were you know, significant. I don't even know what the price of them was. They were like close to all time highs, and I traded all sorts of good stuff for them. So it would have been the moonbird which a lot of people are like, Oh, no, it's like, I don't regret it. I've had great experiences relationship with the team and I love that community. Okay,
Jacquelyn Melinek
let's say you own an NF T which we know you own many would you rather it has a strong community or a high floor price community
Steve Kaczynski
a million times over. That's the value to me. That's always been the value people are the Alpha.
Jacquelyn Melinek
I like that. I think that's what matters more was some people are just money driven, which I got to if you're putting in that much. Aside from your book, what's your favorite crypto book rewrite
Steve Kaczynski
own? I mean, it's not totally a crypto book, but it's by Chris Dixon who actually he wrote a blurb for him on. Oh, that's awesome. And I'm grateful that he wrote one of the blurbs on the back of our book we have blurbs from like Gary Vaynerchuk Chris Dixon, a couple Nobel Prize winners Adam Brockman, Jeff terney a couple others, but like Read Write own I think is just such a great thought leadership level set on what the next generation of this internet is. And like I bought it and like rip through it and like a day. Yeah,
Jacquelyn Melinek
we had Chris Dixon on and then we also had Gary Vee on a little while back. So hopefully our listeners, you know, are getting the hang of this now. With that said, Where do you think is the best place to start to get involved in the NFT space? Like if you had to send one person doesn't have any crypto knowledge they want to get in? Where would you send them?
Steve Kaczynski
This is gonna sound very like shilly but I would say pick up Chris Dixon's book, read that first, then pick up our book and read that one. And I only say that because or listen to audio or whatever. Because it is overwhelming. Like there are a tremendous amount. I'm so grateful for the resources we have on crypto and NFT. Twitter right now, because now there's established brands and people who are having those conversations. But to me like those books read right on, we'll tell you about the history of the internet and why it matters. And then our book will tell you sort of a manual of like, what you should do and how you can get involved in any way that you see fit. Okay,
Jacquelyn Melinek
I like that. And I know you mentioned you have a board, APE NFT we are now out of the rapid fires, you can give me longer responses if you feel inclined, which is one of the most well known NF T's out there even among like mainstream audiences. You know, when people talk about NF Ts, whether negative or positive, they usually bring up board games. And earlier this month, you tweeted that you find 2024 to be a big year for the project. I'm curious, why do you think this year is more significant maybe than the others? And how can the board a community keep that momentum alive that they had during the last bull market?
Steve Kaczynski
Yeah, great question. I think they are a growing startup right now that is going through the growing pains that any major business would be in their way and it's crazy because they're in year three. And most companies like I mean if you looked at Uber in year three, you might be like this companies are wrong, right? Like if you were actually like following it piece by piece, but they were able to slowly roll out already and you collapse has the disadvantage of and the advantage at the same time. Have building in public in front of everybody. So the reason I think 2024 is a major year for them is that the thing that got the board API club really well recognized early on was, it was the community. And it was the desirability of that networking group. Like, when I went into the board API club group, I've never been in anything remotely like it, where there's people who are, you know, entrepreneurs and Jeopardy champions. And I mean, Steph Curry in his bio, Steph Curry, one of the best players in NBA history says ba YC, in his bio. So being in this club is really valuable. What I think has happened over the past 18 months is they've been trying to grow into that valuation through gaming. And they brought in tremendous resources to do the executives with extreme experience across the gaming sector. But I think what they didn't realize is they inadvertently leaned a little bit away from the community aspect. So to me, I think the community is the value. And it doesn't take a lot to get them on track and be your beta testers and your people who will really help you kind of drive the brand forward. So for me, what they need to do this year is continue to lean into the community, they have a whole sort of entrepreneurial sector basically called made by apes, for people who have eight based businesses, my book was 333. So that tells you how many already have registered, let alone now if they're up like 400, so I think highlighting those because they have the opportunity to continue to push towards that decentralized marketing arm that got people so excited about them in the first place. And to me, that's where they could spend a lot of time and energy while building out the gaming. So that's why they gets big. And that's what I think they need to do.
Jacquelyn Melinek
I think it was last year, maybe I'm like, losing track of time, but Dookie dash came out, which was for those who don't know, is the board a focused game that was for board a polders. Right? And you could play the game and kind of win rewards and stuff. How do you think that was perceived? And do you think something like that would be something that would make sense now to or should they explore like other avenues?
Steve Kaczynski
So I think it does make sense. So I think there's a couple things going on with them where they're building out this incredibly ambitious sort of Metaverse world called other side. And that world is going to be time consuming. Like to give you an example on games. I mean, I don't know when the last GTA Grand Theft Auto game came out, it was probably I don't know, over a decade ago. And they're just now teasing a new one, right. And that's how game development can be. So doing that plus, doing it on a novel technology can be very difficult if they want to execute it well and change the paradigm. So along the way, they need to have these experiences that keep people excited, I think duty dash and the reroll out of duty dash is one of those things that makes a lot of sense. Because it gives you something competitive, something to rally around as community, people trade strategies, they spin up private groups, and you can almost in a way, foster the community and keep them happy along the way. And by the way, it's not like it's a bad thing for them. I don't remember the exact numbers. So don't quote me on these, but they made a few million dollars alone in people just spending money on boosts in the game, you know, very similar to how you would see people using like a candy crush or whatever, in a very short period of time. Yeah, they made millions of dollars on secondary royalties in that in selling those assets that were involved with the game. So they can actually create a solid business profit center, running the game, I would think while also keeping their holders and people who are playing the game very happy. So to me, and I know, outside of holders, they're opening up as well. I think it's a smart play. And the last thing I'll say on it is it looks like they're working on integrating like I could bring my ape into Dukey dash, which ties into that little level of identity. As silly as it is if you can bring the thing that you travel across digital spaces with into your own video game. And then you can bring it into another digital space and another digital space, you feel that tighter Connection with it. So I think I'm doing that as a smart play. Yeah, like
Jacquelyn Melinek
that. And I think we talked about web three gaming in the past on the show. And that's a really good way to get people to use and nor buy NF T's without even really thinking about the fact that they're like, deep within the crypto space or not even deep and I feel like they're getting involved I should say. And before we were talking about community asked you during rapid fire and during the board eight questions you brought that up to as your role as the community lead with the Starbucks loyalty program. What does that been like from you know, inception of you getting into it to now I feel like when the Odyssey program first launched, there were so much coverage on it so much talk about it. And since then, like I haven't really seen an update from Starbucks, so I'm curious what, uh, you know, that we don't know, or how have things been going?
Steve Kaczynski
Okay. Oh, my God. So awesome. First of all, like, from a personal perspective, like, awesome, because I get to bring the web three knowledge and I get to bring the community building knowledge. Yeah, but I get to learn from the best loyalty people in the world. And like, there are times when they'll say something, or they'll bring up something and I'll be like, Why don't we do it this way? And they'll be like, because of this and I'm like, Oh my God, that's really smart. That's why you're good at this. And so I think that's been good from a personal perspective, from a program perspective. Totally public knowledge to see like, you can see based on participation last year they issued this stamp again one of the NF T's at the end of the year and to get at least this stamp you had to be at least level one of the program they had level 1234 And five and it was almost like think of it almost like a flight like a rewards program from you carry your status of your silver one year your silver the next year when you earn it right So the people got the stamp at level one got a certain amount of points to kick off their next year and level five, they got more points, meaning they were more participatory, at least level one, people that at least level one, there were 58,000 Plus stamps issued, meaning that they had over 58,000 active participants. And I can promise you, those are mostly or all web three Native people, right without even seeing the numbers, because it's not just web three people who are participating. So to that end, I think what they're doing is really smart and resonating with people and getting them to engage with the brand in a way that they otherwise hadn't before. And my job really is I need to be the cruise director, right? Like, I need to be the guy if anybody's ever been on a cruise, and there's the guy who like gets on before they do a show and gets everyone excited. Like that's sort of my job. It's how do we communicate to everybody to get them really excited? bring in people like, like, I got to interview the creator of the pumpkin spice latte? Like that's a big deal to me. I'm sorry. There was a career for that. Yeah, that's it. It was like a kind of a crew. And actually, he told us in the discord. I don't know if I should share the sounds. But he told us in our private, you know, token gated interview, like we were trying all these different flavors, he talked about the other ones they tried, they actually mash pumpkin pie in a coffee at first to try it, which sounds like something I do Thanksgiving after starting with wine at like nine in the morning or something, right? It's like, let's get the book and find the coffee. But like he talked about like that. So people like that. Or like the person who designed the holiday cups this year, which are a huge iconic thing and Starbucks. So I'm able to kind of help people deepen the relationship with Starbucks brand. Well, my own I mean, I'm a Starbucks guy I was before web three, I'll be long after I work with them if I ever stop. And so to me, it's a great opportunity to do that and just translate that love that people have and realize that when there's groups of 80,000 people belonging to a group in service of finding cold cups, Starbucks issues and trading rare ones and showing collections, that sounds like NF T people, but with like physical clubs, right? It's like, you know that this is a passionate group, and I get to help stoke the flames of that awesome fandom.
Jacquelyn Melinek
So there's tier one, and there's over 50,000 people in that how many tears are there and people involved in the Starbucks Odyssey program?
Steve Kaczynski
I don't know the exact numbers. I don't know if it's publicly available to be actually precise and honest. But the 50,000 represents the active numbers. So like, I don't know how many were on each tier, you could actually find those numbers. If you look, it's a relatively exclusive group to tier five, because that meant not only did you participate, but you bought a decent amount of secondary. I mean, the only thing they did that was pretty cool this year. And I don't expect this is actually the future thing to reward their early adopters, but kind of went under the radar. In December, they announced that in the next I believe month, they're actually sending 40 people to Costa Rica to go to their coffee farm down there. Other top 20 participants based on their score they had were surprised and they were allowed to bring a plus one guest to go travel to Costa Rica and go to their coffee farm down there and learn more about Starbucks and kind of meet each other and foster that community that's on top of some different like smaller, sort of in person meetups. They've done it like various Starbucks groceries, but I think they're providing a lot of utility and doing it well. And anytime I see people on Facebook who don't know what an NF t is, so behind me if people are seeing there's a cup, that's bright orange, there was a limited number of these things issued for the PSL pumpkin spice lattes, 20th anniversary, which happened last year. And so one of the things that happened was when you finish this pumpkin maze as part of Odyssey, they said, surprise, give us your address, we're shipping you a free copy of their limited number of them. It has little PSL charm on it. I went on Facebook, when people in leaf rakers and carpenters, which are a couple of Starbucks groups writing in all caps, run to Odyssey, right. This is people who don't know what an NF T is saying run to go participate in Web3. So that tells me that like Starbucks is onto something and doing it right. When
Jacquelyn Melinek
you're looking forward to other aspects of the Odyssey loyalty program, I should say, what is it that the community wants more of? Or what do they not really care about? Like both sides of the spectrum? Oh,
Steve Kaczynski
that's a good question. This is what's so interesting. They want more access to the brand in various ways, which is the ultimate sign of fandom where respectfully to web three people, the traditional web three person might come to me in the Starbucks out of Sidious court and say, What are you doing to add more utility to this stamp right that we issued last year, which is never the point, it's a loyalty reward, the market decides what they're worth, you have the choice to hold it and get individual specialized Starbucks Rewards or sell it to somebody who wants that as a collectible or whatever. That's not a direction, at least at the moment Starbucks has gone. But what they do want the traditional Starbucks fan, I think the majority of people is the opportunity to do a focus group with the brand and actually talk to people who work at Starbucks, that's seen as utility, the opportunity to purchase more things. In fact, we have these benefit selections where people have to choose between like a hoodie and a backpack. And they say, can I buy the hoodie? And you know, it's one of those things? I think as a brand, you never quite think like, oh, people are going to want to buy even more of these things we're giving as rewards, and so access to buy access to the brand access to learn more. In fact, somebody even said recently, hey, when we did an event based thing around the history of the PSL, we did a journey around that. That was so fun. What's another event based thing based on something from the history of Starbucks that we could bring together So generally speaking, like, it's like almost they want more access to the brand in general. And I think what a lot of the community I would say, doesn't push as hard on, which was kind of surprising is necessarily overly financialization of stamps, right, which is something Starbucks isn't doing and hasn't actively done for obvious reasons. But that's something that I think is a differentiator between, say, you know, the small corner of the internet that is web three, Twitter, for example, or fans of a large brand that if you think about it, like if you were a huge Taylor Swift Fan, and they were like, hey, as a reward for this thing you hold, you can buy tickets to the concert, without having to worry about getting botted right up front, and you can buy a special limited edition t shirt, you'd be like, that's a benefit. So it makes sense that people get excited about that. But it's almost like a surprise that access and information can be major utility for people. Yeah,
Jacquelyn Melinek
I'm not a huge Taylor Swift Fan, Steve, but I do. I go to Grateful Dead concerts, or I guess, dead in Ko, and they kind of discontinue that last year. But one of the things that they had you do when you go or the option is like, you can go to different stands, you sign up for a bunch of different voting things. And then you get like a pin, and you only get that pin at the concert that they're doing annually. So like, I have a handful of these pins. But people will like buy these off you for so much more than what you got for basically for free with the ticket, of course. So I see the value there as well. And I'm curious on the front of the secondary market, is that a big thing for Starbucks Odyssey or no, because these people are more in it for the brand than like the monetary gain. It's
Steve Kaczynski
certainly there. That's what's cool about it, you know, a lot of brands and like, by the way, I think dot swoosh is doing a tremendous job. And Seth Thomas is a friend of mine, the director at tokenomics. They're with Nike. But you know, they opened up and didn't initially have a market, I think one thing Starbucks actually did a really good job with was de vetted out and I know form three who I contract with to work with Starbucks. And there it's worth noting, one of their co founders, Adam Brotman was the former chief digital officer of Starbucks who helped architect their mobile program. So he's a guy who knows a thing or two about that tech, but They vetted partners and found nifty gateway to use them as a custodial option thinking, you know, the average person needs to be able to approach this number one. And number two, having the ability to buy and sell and truly own your loyalty is a new concept makes it less one way. So while not all the community members engage in buying and selling, or actually most of them engage more in buying and selling myself included as a fan of the brand. But I think for a lot of people, having that optionality is so important to sort of the ethos of the program, regardless of how often it's used. And it is used relatively often I don't have the numbers offhand. But you can see some pretty high volumes and secondary markets, especially in some of the more fun generative stamps that they've done, like the degeneracy of their sirens, that they have the mermaid that people see from Starbucks, and they've done pretty well there too. But I think it's almost as important because I think as they build out the program, people need to have that option to have that web three interaction of owning your loyalty and making that decision with yourself custody,
Jacquelyn Melinek
when it comes to consulting with agencies and brands outside of web three, like web two companies, etc. What is the number one thing you hone in on when talking with them that you're really trying to drive that point across,
Steve Kaczynski
I try to get them to see it sounds very high level, but I want them to understand what an NF t is and why it matters. Because even if they're talking to me, they might like a lot of people have a preconceived notion that they are expensive monkey pictures on the internet,
Jacquelyn Melinek
and they can be there. And that's a good point. And they got a void there. But there's other ads. Yeah, of course,
Steve Kaczynski
they certainly can be. And I know that as well as anybody else. And it's like, but I want them to understand there's an analogy that my friend Adam Hollander uses a lot, who I really like that he says, imagine you go into a museum and you see a beautiful painting on the wall, you can take a picture of that painting, but it's not worth any money, you can get a print in the gift shop, but it's not worth any money. The picture on the wall is worth money, because the museum owns it. It's the original, and they can prove both of those things. And up until recently, you couldn't do that with digital items. And so I think you kind of explained that to them. And people say but I can still save the picture. And it's like, right, but I could make my PFP on Twitter or Instagram a picture of Shaquille O'Neal, that doesn't mean I'm gonna collect his checks from the general or go to the Basketball Hall of Fame ceremony. And so once you start explaining this to people, that way, you can then meet them where there are so if it's a insurance company, maybe I explained to predictive analytics against being able to have access to someone's wallet, the things they own and helping them understand their customer better. If it's a medical company, maybe I explained medical records and how you can actually, you know, make that in a way that is more beneficial to consumers as well. And if it's a CPG company, maybe I go Starbucks honestly, but I think there's so many ways to meet people where they are and you know, if it's an artist, I can meet him with art. So I think the goal is like start at the top to explain to them what an NF T is be ready to answer their questions. And that's actually it's funny, like Web3 People say, like, what's at least one value I get from the book. I'm like, we have all the explanations. You can tell people outside of web three, trust me, our editor was non web three native, but it's to try to meet them where they are and say that like we talked about before, it's not ridiculous to think this whole thing sounds crazy, but it's not crazy. And it's interesting. And if it's a $40 billion industry, at least at its early stages, you may want to be aware of what's going on there.
Jacquelyn Melinek
I love that. Steve, on that note, can you leave us with a piece of advice or something that you've carried with you throughout your career in the web through space?
Steve Kaczynski
Man, I think my biggest piece of advice is, being a lifelong learner is like the most important thing you can do. And I've always been someone who's intellectually curious. But I think in this world, I mentioned learning about a $40 billion industry and my co author, Scott said something great, where he was asked a question, Hey, what are your bosses at Harvard? Think about the fact that in 2021, you're teaching about NF T's when a lot of the headlines say that these things are a big scam. And his answer was sort of what I said earlier, which is, if there's a $40 billion industry, our professors and our students should know about it, regardless of how it's operating. And I think for me, that's the one thing I would say is that if you're outside of web three, inside web three, you lifelong learner, because you may, if you're not in web three, pick up our book, read it, listen to it, it's a five hour listen or something like that. So it's not a long listen and say, You know what, these aren't for my business right now. Or I'm gonna wait on this, but at least know and understand, because the last thing you want to do is be blockbuster when Netflix comes along, because those things can get ugly, real quick for a business if you're not ready.
Jacquelyn Melinek
I love that analogy. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Steve.
Steve Kaczynski
Thanks for having me. I very much appreciate it.
Jacquelyn Melinek
We'll be back next week with conversations around what's going on in the wild world of web three with top players in the crypto ecosystem. You could keep up with us on Spotify, Apple Music or your favorite pod platform and subscribe to our companion newsletter, also called chain reaction. Links to the newsletter and stories we talked about can be found in our show notes. And be sure to follow us at chain underscore reaction on Twitter. Chain Reaction is hosted by myself Jacqueline melanic, and produced by Maggie Stamets with assistance from the shark who Kearney and editing by Kel Bryce Durbin is our Illustrator and Henry pick a vet manages TechCrunch audio products. Thanks for listening in. See you next time.
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